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	<title>Comments on: Beware the Security Metric</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/</link>
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		<title>By: Tom Anderson</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105621</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105621</guid>
		<description>Securia&#039;s research proves that IE is definately safer than Firefox (joke). But it does point out that 93% of everyone patches IE. Only 84% of people keep Firefox updated, which shows that more people are having trouble keeping Firefox updated. The reason that 115 patched vulnerabilities in Firefox would be cause for alarm is that people aren&#039;t patching it. Even if MSIE patched 200 undisclosed vulnerabilities, a much higher percentage of IE users (at least those users who ran the Secunia Software Inspector) are safe because their browser has been updated.

And nobody is using those insecure plugins such as ActiveX, right? By putting the two graphs next to each other (browser vulnerabilities vs. plugin vulnerabilities) IMO Secunia did a good job of reporting.

A key thing would be to remind people that Firefox is NOT secure, so it IS important to keep it updated. Also it&#039;s important to make updating an easy process. And I note that Vista security prevents Firefox from checking for updates automatically, but WHY? 

http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Check+for+Updates+is+disabled

This is kind of absurd. We should be able to CHECK for updates even if we can&#039;t install those updates because we&#039;re not running elevated privileges. This Secunia article should be a swift kick: Mozilla should get on the ball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Securia&#8217;s research proves that IE is definately safer than Firefox (joke). But it does point out that 93% of everyone patches IE. Only 84% of people keep Firefox updated, which shows that more people are having trouble keeping Firefox updated. The reason that 115 patched vulnerabilities in Firefox would be cause for alarm is that people aren&#8217;t patching it. Even if MSIE patched 200 undisclosed vulnerabilities, a much higher percentage of IE users (at least those users who ran the Secunia Software Inspector) are safe because their browser has been updated.</p>
<p>And nobody is using those insecure plugins such as ActiveX, right? By putting the two graphs next to each other (browser vulnerabilities vs. plugin vulnerabilities) IMO Secunia did a good job of reporting.</p>
<p>A key thing would be to remind people that Firefox is NOT secure, so it IS important to keep it updated. Also it&#8217;s important to make updating an easy process. And I note that Vista security prevents Firefox from checking for updates automatically, but WHY? </p>
<p><a href="http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Check+for+Updates+is+disabled" rel="nofollow">http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Check+for+Updates+is+disabled</a></p>
<p>This is kind of absurd. We should be able to CHECK for updates even if we can&#8217;t install those updates because we&#8217;re not running elevated privileges. This Secunia article should be a swift kick: Mozilla should get on the ball.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Veditz</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105516</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Veditz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105516</guid>
		<description>@question2

The reports that have measured &quot;time to fix&quot; have generally only counted externally-reported flaws. Vulnerabilities that were not announced until fixed were not counted, both internally-discovered (and possibly not reported at all depending on vendor) and reported by 3rd-parties following &quot;reponsible disclosure&quot;.

To make this distinction clear such reports often use the term &quot;window of exposure&quot; or &quot;days of risk&quot;. And they&#039;re cumulative rather than averaged: a whole mess of TTF 1 day bugs doesn&#039;t make you look better, each one adds to the &quot;window of exposure&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@question2</p>
<p>The reports that have measured &#8220;time to fix&#8221; have generally only counted externally-reported flaws. Vulnerabilities that were not announced until fixed were not counted, both internally-discovered (and possibly not reported at all depending on vendor) and reported by 3rd-parties following &#8220;reponsible disclosure&#8221;.</p>
<p>To make this distinction clear such reports often use the term &#8220;window of exposure&#8221; or &#8220;days of risk&#8221;. And they&#8217;re cumulative rather than averaged: a whole mess of TTF 1 day bugs doesn&#8217;t make you look better, each one adds to the &#8220;window of exposure&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: question2</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105514</link>
		<dc:creator>question2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105514</guid>
		<description>This was never answered:

Braggin about Firefox’s short time to fix...

Does that include flaws discovered by Mozilla, and therefore reported as having a TTF of 1 day?

So if Mozilla does indeed disclose more internally discovered flaws than other vendors, then what is their TTF at Secunia? 1 day?

If so, this might make Mozilla&#039;s TTF claim bogus because the stats are deflated by artificially short TTF bugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was never answered:</p>
<p>Braggin about Firefox’s short time to fix&#8230;</p>
<p>Does that include flaws discovered by Mozilla, and therefore reported as having a TTF of 1 day?</p>
<p>So if Mozilla does indeed disclose more internally discovered flaws than other vendors, then what is their TTF at Secunia? 1 day?</p>
<p>If so, this might make Mozilla&#8217;s TTF claim bogus because the stats are deflated by artificially short TTF bugs.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Pacos</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105513</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Pacos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105513</guid>
		<description>@stillwaiter

Nobody said that secunia only hates firefox, but secunia sure doesn&#039;t try to even pretend to be impartial in their latest &quot;report&quot;.

I&#039;m very curious how you feel justified stating that a group that releases a &quot;report&quot; isn&#039;t responsible for its accuracy. Are you saying that it&#039;s ok to do sloppy work as long as it&#039;s easy? I just did a study and found that 97% of the people that use the handle &quot;stillwaiter&quot; have below average intelligence - it&#039;s a good thing I&#039;m not responsible for the accuracy of those results, right? It&#039;s just my job to report them! 

I might almost agree with you that it&#039;s not secunia&#039;s job to educate people about the meaning of the numbers, but any self-respecting data collector should at least have the integrity to highlight numbers that were collected in different ways when &quot;comparing&quot; them. As has been pointed out in the comments above, even just having an asterisk next to the number and a quick explanation in the chart would have at least been a step in the right direction. Explaining large variations in your data is not showing bias, it&#039;s explaining large variations in your data. Since this data was collected in a different manner, it&#039;s entirely biased not to disclose this. It&#039;s a good thing real scientists can&#039;t be this sloppy! Maybe next year Secunia should double its budget to TWO dollars to generate a useful report. 

Regarding the definition of &quot;neutrality&quot;, perhaps this might help since you can&#039;t seem to find it on wikipedia: 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neutral
The first definition is &quot;not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others&quot;. Secunia releasing a report based on  information it knows to be incorrect with misleading graphs fits well here. This does not fall into the category of &quot;neutral&quot; since it IS giving assistance to all non-firefox browsers in its report. Perhaps your English could use a bit of polishing too. 

Ari T is right. You can tell your employer they are wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@stillwaiter</p>
<p>Nobody said that secunia only hates firefox, but secunia sure doesn&#8217;t try to even pretend to be impartial in their latest &#8220;report&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very curious how you feel justified stating that a group that releases a &#8220;report&#8221; isn&#8217;t responsible for its accuracy. Are you saying that it&#8217;s ok to do sloppy work as long as it&#8217;s easy? I just did a study and found that 97% of the people that use the handle &#8220;stillwaiter&#8221; have below average intelligence &#8211; it&#8217;s a good thing I&#8217;m not responsible for the accuracy of those results, right? It&#8217;s just my job to report them! </p>
<p>I might almost agree with you that it&#8217;s not secunia&#8217;s job to educate people about the meaning of the numbers, but any self-respecting data collector should at least have the integrity to highlight numbers that were collected in different ways when &#8220;comparing&#8221; them. As has been pointed out in the comments above, even just having an asterisk next to the number and a quick explanation in the chart would have at least been a step in the right direction. Explaining large variations in your data is not showing bias, it&#8217;s explaining large variations in your data. Since this data was collected in a different manner, it&#8217;s entirely biased not to disclose this. It&#8217;s a good thing real scientists can&#8217;t be this sloppy! Maybe next year Secunia should double its budget to TWO dollars to generate a useful report. </p>
<p>Regarding the definition of &#8220;neutrality&#8221;, perhaps this might help since you can&#8217;t seem to find it on wikipedia:<br />
<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neutral" rel="nofollow">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neutral</a><br />
The first definition is &#8220;not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others&#8221;. Secunia releasing a report based on  information it knows to be incorrect with misleading graphs fits well here. This does not fall into the category of &#8220;neutral&#8221; since it IS giving assistance to all non-firefox browsers in its report. Perhaps your English could use a bit of polishing too. </p>
<p>Ari T is right. You can tell your employer they are wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: sly</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105512</link>
		<dc:creator>sly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105512</guid>
		<description>mozilla and firefox are awesome.  Good response to the security report.  I feel safe again.  Seriously, keep up your great and hard work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mozilla and firefox are awesome.  Good response to the security report.  I feel safe again.  Seriously, keep up your great and hard work.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105511</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105511</guid>
		<description>While I am no expert on coding anything. I do however repair/remove a ton of virus and other crap my customers get. My repeat customers are the ones who don&#039;t listen to me about Firefox. They refuse to understand that you can&#039;t just wait till your software vendor release&#039;s their normal updates to fix security holes. Firefox, while not perfect has helped me to gain repeat customers, not by being a bad product but by doing so well, that when something else goes wrong i.e. hard drive fails, those customers return since they were happy with my advice.(Granted it&#039;s not just me recommend Firefox, I recommend other open source programs, it also has to do with the quick service times, and speaking to them in language that they can understand)  

I tell all my customers not only do you need to use a good browser but you also have to use some common sense on the web. Sorry even those who stick with IE if they use their brains would have far fewer problems.

I never expect Firefox or any other product to be perfect, however I am pleased with the response times that Firefox has, not to mention that it&#039;s open source, which allows me to use a ton of add ons :)

Any type of report is bound to be wrong one way or another. Just look at the way company&#039;s are doing their polling. The post the numbers but often leave out how the question was worded. 

If I asked a 100 people if they liked scrambled eggs served COLD, and then reported that 99% of the people I polled do not like eggs, Would that be a lie?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am no expert on coding anything. I do however repair/remove a ton of virus and other crap my customers get. My repeat customers are the ones who don&#8217;t listen to me about Firefox. They refuse to understand that you can&#8217;t just wait till your software vendor release&#8217;s their normal updates to fix security holes. Firefox, while not perfect has helped me to gain repeat customers, not by being a bad product but by doing so well, that when something else goes wrong i.e. hard drive fails, those customers return since they were happy with my advice.(Granted it&#8217;s not just me recommend Firefox, I recommend other open source programs, it also has to do with the quick service times, and speaking to them in language that they can understand)  </p>
<p>I tell all my customers not only do you need to use a good browser but you also have to use some common sense on the web. Sorry even those who stick with IE if they use their brains would have far fewer problems.</p>
<p>I never expect Firefox or any other product to be perfect, however I am pleased with the response times that Firefox has, not to mention that it&#8217;s open source, which allows me to use a ton of add ons <img src='http://blog.mozilla.com/security/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Any type of report is bound to be wrong one way or another. Just look at the way company&#8217;s are doing their polling. The post the numbers but often leave out how the question was worded. </p>
<p>If I asked a 100 people if they liked scrambled eggs served COLD, and then reported that 99% of the people I polled do not like eggs, Would that be a lie?</p>
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		<title>By: Mister Smith</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105510</link>
		<dc:creator>Mister Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105510</guid>
		<description>ClickJacking .... Firefox has an addon, NoScript, which was the only one able to stop the attempt. The rest allowed the clickjackers to exploit all the friends I know using Internet Explorer. Boon of business for me to fix these machines, but they all swear by Firefox now. These number do not fool me. Firefox finds a problem, lets me know what it is and has it fixed by the time i read about it. THANK you Mozilla ... 

Mozilla is #1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ClickJacking &#8230;. Firefox has an addon, NoScript, which was the only one able to stop the attempt. The rest allowed the clickjackers to exploit all the friends I know using Internet Explorer. Boon of business for me to fix these machines, but they all swear by Firefox now. These number do not fool me. Firefox finds a problem, lets me know what it is and has it fixed by the time i read about it. THANK you Mozilla &#8230; </p>
<p>Mozilla is #1</p>
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		<title>By: Wilson Perdomo</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105509</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilson Perdomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105509</guid>
		<description>Other software vendors do not report all the bugs they have with their software unlike Firefox. I believe is unfair to compare Firefox with dishonest Micrsoft, Apple, and Opera.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other software vendors do not report all the bugs they have with their software unlike Firefox. I believe is unfair to compare Firefox with dishonest Micrsoft, Apple, and Opera.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Veditz</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105508</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Veditz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105508</guid>
		<description>@Idan: We do publish it, and above I got a roughly half-and-half count going through our public advisories. Any independent observer can go through the bugs linked from those advisories (or alternately, from bugzilla queries) and make their own count if they don&#039;t believe me. The advisories have names attached, the bugs have names attached, it&#039;s all public and published.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Idan: We do publish it, and above I got a roughly half-and-half count going through our public advisories. Any independent observer can go through the bugs linked from those advisories (or alternately, from bugzilla queries) and make their own count if they don&#8217;t believe me. The advisories have names attached, the bugs have names attached, it&#8217;s all public and published.</p>
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		<title>By: Idan</title>
		<link>http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2009/03/06/beware-the-security-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-105507</link>
		<dc:creator>Idan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mozilla.com/security/?p=71#comment-105507</guid>
		<description>IF so, why not publishing how many issues were found by your team and how many were found externally? Until you publish it, I simply don&#039;t believe you. Me - switching back to IE8. Good and safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IF so, why not publishing how many issues were found by your team and how many were found externally? Until you publish it, I simply don&#8217;t believe you. Me &#8211; switching back to IE8. Good and safe.</p>
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